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I have been reading in a few other forums the basics of riding and I have came across a topic that I am sure some, if not many of you could probably answer in a clear manner. This is the idea of putting pressure on the grip and pressing down and away in the direction you want to go for quick turns. Now to me that sound like steering which you don't really do on a bike unless you are like under 2mph. I haven't gone through the MSF (becaues of the wait, but I am on the list). I know that if you keep in line with the centerline of the bike and lean with the bike you will turn at a steady rate, but i think this countersteering issue can help me with controlled fast turns (to avoid hazards or what not). Also since I just bought my bike, I am a little hesitate on the whole leaning issue anyway, just because of the fact that I don't want the wheel to slip. People say that if you remain in the center of the bike you will scrape metal before the wheel comes out from under you. Just a few questions or thoughts I have about riding. I don't want you to think I have no idea how to ride I just want to further my skills before I take the test for my lisence. My background is in 4 wheelers/trailbikes and this is my first street bike. Any info would be great. Thanks

Bill
 

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Countersteering is automatic. The faster your going the easier it is to turn on a lean. The automatic part comes with the inside grip. For ex. if you are leaning into a right turn, your right grip pushes to outside for stability automaticaly. Its not a blatant reaction something thats subtle to the fact that you dont even think about it. Just drop your speed before you enter, I like engine braking for certain reasons. It keeps your rotor cooler so they are there when you need them and stablizes your rpms for a smooth exit. Careful engine braking too harsh or you will lose traction in the rear. Use throttle on your exit and that helps you come off your lean. For the exact science of counter-steering go to Google.com and search for it.
 

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You really need to go to MSF. Also, you should buy and read and re-read "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch. It will be an invaluable resource for you in the future, and the information might just save your ass. I talked to Nick about the book after he released it. He has put a lot of thought into it, and believes it can help every rider somewhat, regardless of skill level.

Click below:

http://www.whitehorsepress.com/product.asp?id=srt

Where are you stationed at?

- Nut
 

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It isnt the leaning that turns the bike,watch the superbike riders on TV,they are hanging off the side ready for the corner.Without counter-steering you would'nt turn,simple as that.

You are counter-steering already,you just did'nt know.

Ride down the street at a slowish speed,pick a spot on the road,as you reach it push the right side away from you,the bike will twitch to the left then turn in to the right and keep going right until you straighten up.

Stevie C :lol:
 

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No one has really said it clearly, so here it goes:

You are ALWAYS countersteering in a turn. The law of physics do not allow for you to turn the front wheel right and go right. On a tricycle, yes, but not on a motor-bicycle. In fact, your REAR wheel causes the bike to turn, much in the same fashion as a paper cup turns if you roll it across a table. COUNTERSTEERING IS NOT A RACING TECHNIQUE, BUT WHAT WE ALL DO AUTOMATICALLY EVERY TIME WE RIDE.

This applies to a bicycle, too, BTW. I personally recommend David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling as a source of a more thorough explaination of all things motocycling.

As for leaning to make a bike turn... Yes, it can be done - but only to a very slight degree. The overwhelming motion of a turn is performed by pressing the bar with the hand you want to turn towards. This initiates a lean, which is what allows the rear tire to turn the bike.

Don't believe me? Check out the "No B.S." machine, complete with fixed (immovable) handlebars.

http://californiasuperbikeschool.com/us/machinery/no_bs_machine.shtml

It's not rocket surgery, but it is counter-intuitive. Read and learn, friends.
 

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May I offer a second endorsement for David Hough's book. It's excellent. Also, I recommend you subscribe to "Motorcycle Consumer News." He has a monthy column in there on "proficient motorcycling". Also, they recently ran a series on steering, you can check the back issues at their website http://www.MCNews.com.

Please take it easy until your MSF course comes up. You'll learn many valuable techniques that will save your bacon.
 

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RowdyRed94 said:
No one has really said it clearly, so here it goes:

You are ALWAYS countersteering in a turn. The law of physics do not allow for you to turn the front wheel right and go right. On a tricycle, yes, but not on a motor-bicycle. In fact, your REAR wheel causes the bike to turn, much in the same fashion as a paper cup turns if you roll it across a table. COUNTERSTEERING IS NOT A RACING TECHNIQUE, BUT WHAT WE ALL DO AUTOMATICALLY EVERY TIME WE RIDE.

This applies to a bicycle, too, BTW. I personally recommend David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling as a source of a more thorough explaination of all things motocycling.

As for leaning to make a bike turn... Yes, it can be done - but only to a very slight degree. The overwhelming motion of a turn is performed by pressing the bar with the hand you want to turn towards. This initiates a lean, which is what allows the rear tire to turn the bike.

Don't believe me? Check out the "No B.S." machine, complete with fixed (immovable) handlebars.

http://californiasuperbikeschool.com/us/machinery/no_bs_machine.shtml

It's not rocket surgery, but it is counter-intuitive. Read and learn, friends.

I think everyones 2 cents has explained it. But like I said previously if you want the physical law search for "Countersteering" in a search engine.
 
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I hate to be the voice of dissention, but it's been my experience over the last 35 years of riding that most, if not all beginning riders haven't a clue how to countersteer, much less do it automatically with any sort of competence.

Statistically, the most common accident involving new riders is where the rider fails to execute a curve or corner tight enough and runs off the road. I work in trauma medicine, and those stats are very well known to me and are repeated in most MSF basic rider courses.

As a member of a local riders' club, we require all members take the MSF basic rider course and strongly encourage members take MSF's experienced riders course after their first year. I make a point of working with newbies on their counter-steering skills. In the last ten years, I've not seen even one new rider counter-steer automatically. It's the most counter-intuitive aspect of proficient motorcycling, and is ironically the most common skill that'll save your life in accident situations and prevent you and your bike from taking the aerial route off a guard-rail free mountain twisty.
 

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Er...............No other way.
If you going wide on a curve, push on the bar on the inside (closest to the road cos your leaned over) and that will tighten your turning. If going wide DON'T shut off the throttle, hit the anchors, or pray as none of these will help you.
Practise will make perfect. Practise at turning only with the bars -push the right bar forward to turn right and left bar for left. It is really easy and very precise and over time you don't realise that you're doing it. If you're a noob you'll be surprised how low you are not and how much more the bike will take.
 

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Woofy said:
I hate to be the voice of dissention, but it's been my experience over the last 35 years of riding that most, if not all beginning riders haven't a clue how to countersteer, much less do it automatically with any sort of competence.
Agreed, as long as you understand that nearly all turns begin with countersteering. As I said, physics don't allow you to steer right and turn right.

As you said, the problem lies with new riders' lack of understanding of what countersteering is, that they have been doing it all along, and how to enhance their use of it. That's where rider courses come in - not to teach a new technique, but to explain one already in use.
 

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98corona said:
Just so I get this correctly are you saying on 2 wheels at speed excessive of 15 mph their is any other way to steer?
Correct, but it's more like over 3 mph. You have to be going pretty slow to initiate a 'steer left, go left' turn using body weight alone. It's quite hard to demonstrate since the bike's weight and motion dynamics aren't readily apparent without a bunch of g-force equipment. Chances are, even very slow speed turns are initiated by tiny introductions of countersteering.
 

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Everyone who has driven a motorcycle has experienced it, the MSF classes mention (but don't explain) it, and motorcyclists discuss it all the time. But what is it, really? How does it work? Why does it work? All questions I will try to deal with in this discussion.

At very slow speeds we steer a motorcycle by turning the handlebar in the direction we wish to go. We can only do that at speeds of less than about 5 MPH. At any higher speed we do the exact opposite, whether we realize it or not. For example, assuming we want to turn to the right, we actually TRY to turn the handlebar left. This results in the front wheel leaning to the right and, as a result of the lean of the wheel, a turn to the right. This is counter-steering.

Why is it that we don't get confused regardless of our speed? Because we have learned that steering a motorcycle is an effortless chore. That attempt to turn the handlebar to the left FEELS like we are pushing the right grip rather than pulling on the left one. It feels like that because the harder we push it, the more the motorcycle turns to the right and, thus, it feels like the right grip is pushing back at you that much harder. In other words, we quickly learn to associate counter-steering feedback with the hand closest to the direction in which we wish to turn. Further, even a little bit of experience shows that counter-steering is essentially effortless while trying to turn the handlebar in the direction you want to go is virtually impossible. Humans are relatively fast studies, after all.

It takes only a modest familiarity with a gyroscope to understand counter-steering - at least to understand how most people believe it starts to work. The phenomenon is called Gyroscopic Precession. This is what happens when a lateral force is applied to the axis of a spinning gyroscope. The spinning gyroscope translates the force vector ninety degrees off the direction of spin. Thus, if we try to turn our front wheel to the left, the force we use appears as a lateral force forward against the axle on the right side and this is translated into a force that tries to lean the wheel to the right. Similarly, trying to turn the wheel to the right results in the wheel trying to lean to the left.

But gyroscopic precession is not a necessary component of counter-steering. No matter how slight, if your front wheel deviates from a straight path your motorcycle will begin to lean in the opposite direction. It is entirely accurate to assume that even without gyroscopic precession, the act of steering the front wheel out from under the bike would start counter-steering in the opposite direction. This is a result of steering geometry - rake. You can observe it at a complete stop. Just turn your handlebars in one direction and you will see that your bike leans in the opposite direction as a result. [Please note that though gyroscopic precession is not a necessary component of counter-steering it GREATLY facilitates it. Indeed, it is the precession of the REAR tire that results from the momentary change of direction of the bike that 'pushes' about 80% of the bulk of the bike into a lean in the direction you want to go.]

In the case of a motorcycle, your handlebar input is immediately translated by gyroscopic precession into a lean in the opposite direction. Since your front wheel is attached to the bike's frame, the body of the bike also attempts to lean. It is the lean of the BIKE that overwhelms the handlebar effort and drags the front wheel over with it - gyroscopic precession merely starts the process and soon becomes inconsequential in the outcome.

If, for example, you had a ski rather than a front wheel, the front would actually begin to turn in the direction of handlebar input (just like it does with a wheel instead of a ski) and body lean in the opposite direction would then overwhelm that ski making counter-steering still effective.

The ONLY WAY to turn a motorcycle that is moving faster than you can walk is by leaning it (if it only has two wheels). We have talked only about what starts that lean to take place. Indeed, all we have talked about is the directional change of the front wheel along with the simultaneous lean of the bike, both in the opposite direction signaled by handlebar input. So then what happens?

Before getting into what is actually somewhat complicated let me say that if you were to let go of your handlebars and provide no steering information whatever (or you were to get knocked off your motorcycle), after some wildly exciting swings from side to side your motorcycle would 'find' a straight course to travel in and would stabilize itself on that course, straight up! That's right, your motorcycle has a self-correcting design built into it - known as its Steering Geometry - that causes it to automatically compensate for all forms of leaning and speed changes and end up standing straight up, going in a straight line, whether you are on the bike or not - until it is traveling so slowly that it will fall down.

This diagram shows a typical motorcycle front-end. The handlebars are connected to the steering column, which is connected to the knee bone, which is... Oops, wrong discussion. The steering column (actually called the 'steering stem') does not connect to the knee bone, nor does it connect directly to your forks! Instead, it connects to what is known as the triple-tree (shown as D in the diagram.) This is merely where both forks are tied, along with the steering stem, to the bike's frame. You will notice that the triple-tree extends towards the front and that as a result the forks are offset forward some distance from the steering stem. (Notice the red diagonal lines marked C and C'.) This is known as the offset.

Now please notice that the forks are not pointing straight down from the triple-tree, but are instead at an angle. This angle is known as the rake. Were it not for that rake (and modest offset) the front tire would touch the ground at point A. (Most rake angles are approximately 30 degrees.)

What the rake does for you is profoundly important. For one thing, it causes any lean of the wheel to be translated into a turn of the wheel towards that lean. For another, it slows down your steering. That is, if you turn your handlebar 20 degrees at slow speed your course will change something less than 20 degrees. [At higher speeds you NEVER would turn your handlebars 20 degrees - the front wheel is always pointing virtually straight ahead.] Rake, in the case of higher speed turning then really does SLOW DOWN the realization of the turn. (We will see why soon.)

Looking at the diagram, imagine that instead of pointing to the right the wheel is pointing straight at you. (The body of the motorcycle remains pointing to the right.) You will now recognize that the contact patch which was B before the wheel turned has now got to be near where C' is at. In other words, the fact that your wheel is on a rake results in the consumption of part of your steering input into a displacement of the contact patch of the wheel. (This is why steering is 'slower' - and the greater the rake, the slower it is. Note that 'slow steering' is NOT the same as 'under-steer'.)

Notice also that where the red diagonal line marked C' touches the tire is higher than where B touches the tire. This demonstrates that a consequence of turning is that the front-end of your motorcycle actually lowers based on rake geometry. The distance between where B and C (not C') touch the ground is called trail. (Trail, as you can see, is determined by rake angle, offset and tire radius.) Some motorcycles will have the hub of the front wheel either above or below the forks rather than directly in the middle of them. In effect, these placements are designed to reduce or increase the effect of the offset in order to increase or reduce trail.

The stability of your motorcycle at speed is a function of how long its trail is. However, have you ever noticed that the front wheel on bikes that have excessive rakes (and therefore long trail) have a tendency to flop over (at low speeds) when they are not aligned perfectly straight ahead? This is the phenomena that explains just one of the reasons why your wheel actually turns in the direction you want to go after it begins to lean in that direction. Any lean whatever of the wheel, because gravity tries to lower the front-end, receives an assist from gravity in its efforts to move the contact patch forward along the trail. Further, notice that the pivot axis of your forks is along C, not C' and that this is behind the bulk of the front-end. Thus, gravity plays an even bigger role in causing the wheel to turn than at first glance it would appear. (And now you see why you have steering dampers - so that a little lean doesn't result in a FAST tank-slapping fall of the wheel in the direction of the lean.)

But there is another, more powerful, reason that the lean is translated into a turn - Camber Thrust. Unlike automobile tires, your motorcycle rides on tires that are rounded instead of flat from side to side. When you are riding vertically your contact patch is right in the middle of the tire, at its farthest point from the hub of the wheel. When you are leaning you are riding on a part of the tire that is closer to the hub of the wheel. The farthest parts of the tire from the hub of the wheel are TURNING FASTER than any part closer to that hub. Thus, when you are leaning the outside edge of the contact patch is moving faster than is the inside edge.

Imagine taking two tapered drinking glasses and putting them together as in the next diagram. Does this not bear a striking resemblance to the profile of your tires when looking at them head on?



Now imagine placing one of those glasses on its side on the table and giving it a push. Note that the glass MUST move in a circle because the lip of the glass is moving faster than any other part of it. The same is true of your tires. This camber thrust forces your wheel to turn in response to a lean.

Thus, both the rake geometry and camber thrust conspire to cause a leaning front wheel to become a turn in the direction of the lean. Then, of course, the motorcycle body follows the wheel and it, too, leans in the direction of the turn.

So, now you know what counter-steering is, how it works, and why. What might just now be occurring to you is with all of these forces conspiring to cause the wheel to lean and then turn in the direction you want to go, what stops that wheel from going all the way to a stop every time a little counter-steer is used? And, as I earlier mentioned, how does a pilotless motorcycle automatically right itself?

The answer to both of those questions is centrifugal force and, again, rake geometry. For any given speed and lean combination there is only one diameter of a circle that can be maintained. This is a natural balance point at which gravity is trying to pull the bike down and centrifugal force is trying to stand it up, both with equal results. (If you have Excel on your system you might want to click on this link for a model that demonstrates this concept.)

If the speed is increased without a corresponding decrease in the diameter of the turn being made, centrifugal force will try to stand the bike more vertically - i.e., decreases the lean angle. This, in turn, decreases the camber thrust and the bike will, of its own accord, increase the diameter of the turn being made.

If the speed had been held constant but the bike attempts to shorten the diameter of the turn beyond that natural balance point then centrifugal forces are greater than gravity and it stands taller, again lengthening the diameter of the turn as described earlier.

Once your bike is stable in a curve (constant speed and constant lean) then it will stay that way until it receives some steering input. i.e., you again use some counter-steering or the road surface changes or the wind changes or you shift your weight in some way or you change speed.

As soon as any form of steering input occurs the stability of the bike is diminished. Momentum, camber forces and rake geometry will then engage in mortal combat with each other which will, eventually, cause the motorcycle to find a way to straighten itself out. That momentum will try to keep the motorcycle going in a straight line is obvious, but it also works with traction in an interesting way. That is, because the front tire's contact patch has traction the momentum of the entire motorcycle is applied to the task of trying to 'scrub' the rubber off that tire. If the body of the motorcycle is aligned with the front tire (only possible if traveling in a straight line) then there is essentially no 'scrubbing' going on. But if the bike is not in perfect alignment with the front tire, then momentum will try to straighten the wheel by pushing against the edge of that contact patch which is on the outside of the curve. As the contact patch touches the ground somewhere near point B, and because that is significantly behind the pivot axis of the front-end (red-dashed line C), the wheel is forced to pivot away from the curve.

I believe you now see why if the bike were to become pilotless it would wildly gyrate for a few moments as all of these conflicting forces battled each other and the bike became stable by seeking a straight path and being vertical. Clever, these motorcycle front-end designers. No?
 

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You mean to tell me you just wrote that whole elephant of a post? I don't see any credits. :shock:
 
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