I'm not stubborn but i guess i just need to hear it for my particular case particulary from someone with lots of experience like uncle bob or similiar. I've done the canadian msf course last year and will be getting a bike this year (my first one) after i graduate from university (in a month). I've read lots of advice to newbies over a year (i carefully consider my options btw) and decided that the sv650s is the better bike as opposed to the 1000s as i am a beginner. The snag is that all the advice that i have read has been to young guys where i am a bit older (21) and much more mature (beyond my years) and plus i am a bigger guy ... i am about 250 pounds. So i guess i just need to hear some advice from you guys...if you say i shouldnt do it, then i'm not gonna sit here and try to convince you to change your mind ...i'll take your advice end of discussion. I prefer to get the sv1000s as opposed to the 650s b/c a)I like the extra power that will be available as i get better over the YEARS (i wanna keep it for at least 5 years or so). b) I think its better suited to my physical size (dont know for sure) c) i like the looks slighty better and since they are close enough in price used and in insurance (strangely enough) why not go for the 1000? Anyways, thats what im going through now...i'd really appreciate your guys advice on this. I respect each and every one of your opinions and WILL listen i assure you.
I'm not stubborn...
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The advice you've read, for the most part, comes from direct personal experience. We wouldn't be warning you against a 100+ hp bike if we weren't genuinely concerned that you'll get whipped by it.
See, there are several distinct stages to motorcycling maturity, as seen firsthand by me.
1. New bike nervousness. This is a survival stage, where your fear keeps you in line. If you bought a helmet and planned to wear it, you will. You'll either do fine during this stage, or do something dumb and dump it, like I did. At this stage, you'll likely put more interest into straight-line acceleration, which made you buy the bike you did in the first place.
2. False confidence. At this stage, you've learned the controls and the feel of the bike. This leads you to believe that you're a fairly skilled rider. You're not. It takes years and thousands of miles, not to mention some actual study of those who do have skills, to become a talented rider. Also, this is the stage where you decide that your risk is low, and you stop wearing your helmet and start posing. The fact is, this is probably your highest risk stage. Your false confidence is leading you to try new things, some of which you aren't ready for. And since you may not have had an accident yet, you aren't paying enough attention to the world around you - namely the idiots in the cages out to flatten you.
3. The wake up call. This will either come in the form of a bad experience, like a crash, or news of a friend's crash (or death, or paralysis). You realize that you're not the rider you thought, and wake up to wearing proper gear, and doing some learning. You might buy a book or attend a track day, and you realize that motorcycling satisfaction might just come from handling the curves, rather than rocketing ahead in a straight line. I have forums like this one to thank for my wake up call. Reading posts from anonymous friends has changed me as a rider, only for the better.
4. Maturity. This doesn't mean invincibility. It means that you've studied and practiced emergency maneuvers. It means you know what the moron in the minivan will do before he does it. It means you ride for yourself, and the feelings you generate, rather than to impress anyone else. And it often means you give up the race-replica squid bike for something more appropriate to your skills and usage.
We aren't telling you to start small for our benefit, but because many of us have been there and done that, incorrectly. Your results may vary.
-Clint
P.s. There will be plenty of people willing to buy that SV650 from you when (if) you outgrow it. Don't worry about that.
See, there are several distinct stages to motorcycling maturity, as seen firsthand by me.
1. New bike nervousness. This is a survival stage, where your fear keeps you in line. If you bought a helmet and planned to wear it, you will. You'll either do fine during this stage, or do something dumb and dump it, like I did. At this stage, you'll likely put more interest into straight-line acceleration, which made you buy the bike you did in the first place.
2. False confidence. At this stage, you've learned the controls and the feel of the bike. This leads you to believe that you're a fairly skilled rider. You're not. It takes years and thousands of miles, not to mention some actual study of those who do have skills, to become a talented rider. Also, this is the stage where you decide that your risk is low, and you stop wearing your helmet and start posing. The fact is, this is probably your highest risk stage. Your false confidence is leading you to try new things, some of which you aren't ready for. And since you may not have had an accident yet, you aren't paying enough attention to the world around you - namely the idiots in the cages out to flatten you.
3. The wake up call. This will either come in the form of a bad experience, like a crash, or news of a friend's crash (or death, or paralysis). You realize that you're not the rider you thought, and wake up to wearing proper gear, and doing some learning. You might buy a book or attend a track day, and you realize that motorcycling satisfaction might just come from handling the curves, rather than rocketing ahead in a straight line. I have forums like this one to thank for my wake up call. Reading posts from anonymous friends has changed me as a rider, only for the better.
4. Maturity. This doesn't mean invincibility. It means that you've studied and practiced emergency maneuvers. It means you know what the moron in the minivan will do before he does it. It means you ride for yourself, and the feelings you generate, rather than to impress anyone else. And it often means you give up the race-replica squid bike for something more appropriate to your skills and usage.
We aren't telling you to start small for our benefit, but because many of us have been there and done that, incorrectly. Your results may vary.
-Clint
P.s. There will be plenty of people willing to buy that SV650 from you when (if) you outgrow it. Don't worry about that.
Great post
RowdyRed,
I just purchased a 2002 750 Katana and was searching for some information on it when I came across this site and started reading some of the posts. I have to say, your post above is by far the most intelligent advice I've ever seen given to someone about to get their first bike.
I wasn't even registered, but had to just to say "great post." I hope more beginners get to read it.
RowdyRed,
I just purchased a 2002 750 Katana and was searching for some information on it when I came across this site and started reading some of the posts. I have to say, your post above is by far the most intelligent advice I've ever seen given to someone about to get their first bike.
I wasn't even registered, but had to just to say "great post." I hope more beginners get to read it.
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3 Posts
Prospecting Young Rider
Im 17 and I've wanted a bike(any kind) for as long as I can Remember,My Dad had a Honda Hurricane when I was younger nd he used to take me for rides all the time.Now my brother owns a bike(82' GS650) older bike but great.I rode dirt bikes for a while with friends of mine that owned them, and they taught me all about that, so i have no trouble riding a bike normally, also I recently got to ride my buddy's Vaulkirie which was insane cause it had so much damn power. BUt now I think it's time to get my own DAMN bike.I have money but I'm not sure whether to get an older cruising style bike to learn on and get used to the road or whether just to go ahead and get the GSXr600 or ZX6r. I've spoken to poeple I know that are into bikes (Sport Bikes/Hogs) and they said to get whatever I want and just to be safe.Now this kid I know just went out and and blew 12 grand on an 03' Hayabusa which I think is insane cause I knoww what they can do.
Im 17 and I've wanted a bike(any kind) for as long as I can Remember,My Dad had a Honda Hurricane when I was younger nd he used to take me for rides all the time.Now my brother owns a bike(82' GS650) older bike but great.I rode dirt bikes for a while with friends of mine that owned them, and they taught me all about that, so i have no trouble riding a bike normally, also I recently got to ride my buddy's Vaulkirie which was insane cause it had so much damn power. BUt now I think it's time to get my own DAMN bike.I have money but I'm not sure whether to get an older cruising style bike to learn on and get used to the road or whether just to go ahead and get the GSXr600 or ZX6r. I've spoken to poeple I know that are into bikes (Sport Bikes/Hogs) and they said to get whatever I want and just to be safe.Now this kid I know just went out and and blew 12 grand on an 03' Hayabusa which I think is insane cause I knoww what they can do.
Prospecting,
For the reasons listed in Rowdy's post, you really ought to start off with something a little less powerful than a GSX-R. Ride it for a year or two, then sell it. If you ask a fair price, it will sell quickly when you need to sell it. Also, at 17 insuring a GSX-R has got to be tough unless you have deep pockets.
For the reasons listed in Rowdy's post, you really ought to start off with something a little less powerful than a GSX-R. Ride it for a year or two, then sell it. If you ask a fair price, it will sell quickly when you need to sell it. Also, at 17 insuring a GSX-R has got to be tough unless you have deep pockets.
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879 Posts
Any time you think you have outgrown your bike, simply take it to the track and compare what you can do on it to what others are doing on same sized bikes. If your not in the front and know for sure that you could go out and win some races, then there is still more in the bike for you to find. People rarely actually "outgrow" their bikes, they simply want bigger ones.
Hey there Prospect, one other thing you should keep in mind when you're picking out a bike.
You know that Valkyrie that you rode with the "insane power"?
Depending on the year bike it is, it has probably around 75% of the horsepower of a GSX-R 600 and weighs about TWICE as much.
In other words, if that Valk was "insane" getting a Gixxer would be just plain "stupid".
But it sounds like you're on the right track, do a bunch of research, look at a lot of different bikes, take a MSF course, go for some rides on different bikes. Find one that's right for you.
Ride something with a little less power, don't worry, even most of the non-sportbikes will out accelerate a ferrari, and after you've ridden it for a year or to, when it starts feeling like you can't push it any harder, THEN go buy a bigger, faster bike.
Besides, as someone else already posted, unless you have a LOT of money, a Gixxer is going to be VERY expensive for you to insure.... and that's IF you can find someone who will insure it!
Good luck!
You know that Valkyrie that you rode with the "insane power"?
Depending on the year bike it is, it has probably around 75% of the horsepower of a GSX-R 600 and weighs about TWICE as much.
In other words, if that Valk was "insane" getting a Gixxer would be just plain "stupid".
But it sounds like you're on the right track, do a bunch of research, look at a lot of different bikes, take a MSF course, go for some rides on different bikes. Find one that's right for you.
Ride something with a little less power, don't worry, even most of the non-sportbikes will out accelerate a ferrari, and after you've ridden it for a year or to, when it starts feeling like you can't push it any harder, THEN go buy a bigger, faster bike.
Besides, as someone else already posted, unless you have a LOT of money, a Gixxer is going to be VERY expensive for you to insure.... and that's IF you can find someone who will insure it!
Good luck!
Gee am I wearing off on you guy's ?
Rowdy great post !
There's just one point I would like to adress. The "I want to keep my bike for 5 years" is not a consideration to take into account in getting your first bike. First bike is a learning tool, chances are that approaching motorcycling in a responsable manner will help you to stay out of trouble, training and practice will get you further down the road. But practice is just that practice, where you go out we're there's the least of trfaic around and practice your low speed manoevers then your road riding techniques and lastly your twisties.
Now it's a given that you will make mistakes, we all do. A bike that won't emphasize your mistakes will turn a potentially fatal mistake into a scary experience from which you wil grow into a better rider ( hopefully ).
Just getting out of school ?. Finances are usually low so a less expensive bike is a good idea, first bike you'll need to spend for some good gear, helmets,gloves,jacket,pants,boots, rainsuit. In two or three years your revenues should be increasing so a better time to buy a more expensive bike and with some years of experience you'll be better prepared to handle it.
As for size, I'm 6'2" and 230 lbs ( yes I lost a little ) and ride a Volusia and am very happy with all it's 50 hp so I don't see how an SV650 with 50% more horsepower and 150 less pounds couldn't be enough for you.
And my last point is that bikes with bigger engines don't usually have more rider room. The SV1000 has a whole 5mm more wheelbase than the 650 so I seriously doubt you'll see any ergonomic differences between the two.
Rowdy great post !
There's just one point I would like to adress. The "I want to keep my bike for 5 years" is not a consideration to take into account in getting your first bike. First bike is a learning tool, chances are that approaching motorcycling in a responsable manner will help you to stay out of trouble, training and practice will get you further down the road. But practice is just that practice, where you go out we're there's the least of trfaic around and practice your low speed manoevers then your road riding techniques and lastly your twisties.
Now it's a given that you will make mistakes, we all do. A bike that won't emphasize your mistakes will turn a potentially fatal mistake into a scary experience from which you wil grow into a better rider ( hopefully ).
Just getting out of school ?. Finances are usually low so a less expensive bike is a good idea, first bike you'll need to spend for some good gear, helmets,gloves,jacket,pants,boots, rainsuit. In two or three years your revenues should be increasing so a better time to buy a more expensive bike and with some years of experience you'll be better prepared to handle it.
As for size, I'm 6'2" and 230 lbs ( yes I lost a little ) and ride a Volusia and am very happy with all it's 50 hp so I don't see how an SV650 with 50% more horsepower and 150 less pounds couldn't be enough for you.
And my last point is that bikes with bigger engines don't usually have more rider room. The SV1000 has a whole 5mm more wheelbase than the 650 so I seriously doubt you'll see any ergonomic differences between the two.
Get what you want. As long as you ride within YOUR abilities, what you are on is of little consequence.
Granted, power on hand is temptation to use it inappropriately.
Personally, and I realize my opinion is in the minority here, I see more power, agile handling, and superior brakes as a better means of avoiding the soccer mom on the cellphone.
You can kill yourself DRT on a EX500 just as easily as on a liter class sportbike.
Comes down to you. Are you mature enough to avoid temptation and ride responsibly?
I submit that the responsible new rider on a race bike with lights is less dangerous than the irresponsible guy riding the recommended 'newbie' bike, whose brother taught him to ride last week in 10 minutes in a parking lot.
98G
Granted, power on hand is temptation to use it inappropriately.
Personally, and I realize my opinion is in the minority here, I see more power, agile handling, and superior brakes as a better means of avoiding the soccer mom on the cellphone.
You can kill yourself DRT on a EX500 just as easily as on a liter class sportbike.
Comes down to you. Are you mature enough to avoid temptation and ride responsibly?
I submit that the responsible new rider on a race bike with lights is less dangerous than the irresponsible guy riding the recommended 'newbie' bike, whose brother taught him to ride last week in 10 minutes in a parking lot.
98G
(it seems I just can't shut up)
I'm a Critical Care Nurse in an ICU. We get lots of trauma. A decent amount of it it motorcycle-involved.
I see a pronounced trend in the trauma patients we get.
That trend isn't displacement of the motorcycle. It is unrelated to horsepower or torque. It isn't sportbike vs cruiser vs 'plain' streetbike. Protective equipment use or non-use has been irrelevant in my admittedly nonscientific empirical observations.
I can sum up the cause of most trauma that I can see in one sentence: Somebody Implemented a Bad Idea. That's it.
It's 2 am and raining outside. You're at your buddy's house and half drunk. Now would NOT be a good idea to ride your motorcycle home. Nope, not even if you wear a helmet and ride the speed limit. Bad Idea.
You're on hwy 20 an hour or so out from Ft Bragg on your nice new CBR600. The curve says "20 mph". You find yourself midcurve at 40mph. Now would be a bad time to stand the bike up and grab the brakes for all you're worth. It matters very little that you're on a bike considered unsuitable for newbies. You're using maybe 20 of that 110 horsepower, the other 80 are no detriment to your position. Poor judgement got you there without help of that evil power. Agile handling could get you out of it if you'd refrain from panicking. Panic is a Bad Idea.
Your buddy is driving away. You want to go too. Jumping on the moving car is a Very Bad Idea.
Breaking into a home armed with a knife when the owner is home and armed with a firearm also qualifies as Very Bad Idea.
Doing a low hook turn your first day skydiving, whether or not your wife videotapes the event, is a Bad Idea.
Riding your ATV too fast for conditions and going off a cliff on the beach in San Jose, is a Bad Idea.
Riding your motorcycle with a passenger on the gas tank, is a Very Bad Idea. (So is volunteering to be the passenger).
Straps that hang down and invite the chain to grab them, are a Bad Idea For All Concerned.
Now back to motorcycle choice specifics:
When riding down Watt ave in Sacramento and someone turns left in front of you, having not used a signal and not slowed down, good brakes are a Good Idea. In such an instance I would venture to opine that two large rotors pinched by a plethora of pistons beat the **** out of one skinny little rotor, or worse, a drum. Incidentally that was the first stoppie I ever did. It was a two finger stoppie. Using two fingers on the brakes is preached as bad practice. For the life of me I can't really figure out why.
When sitting stopped at a light, and car approaches from behind at a high rate of speed being chased by a police car, accelleration is a Good Thing. I would go so far as to say More is Better.
All of the above are real incidents. HIPAA will prevent me from going onto more detail on the traumas.
I can postulate a multitude of hypothetical situations where more power and better braking are an asset, but I can't think of a SINGLE INSTANCE where more power and better braking are a liability, WHEN RESPONSIBLY USED.
You are accountable for your actions and your choices. There is NO SUBSTITUTE for responsible actions.
Responsibility for yourself and your actions is a Good Idea.
98G
I'm a Critical Care Nurse in an ICU. We get lots of trauma. A decent amount of it it motorcycle-involved.
I see a pronounced trend in the trauma patients we get.
That trend isn't displacement of the motorcycle. It is unrelated to horsepower or torque. It isn't sportbike vs cruiser vs 'plain' streetbike. Protective equipment use or non-use has been irrelevant in my admittedly nonscientific empirical observations.
I can sum up the cause of most trauma that I can see in one sentence: Somebody Implemented a Bad Idea. That's it.
It's 2 am and raining outside. You're at your buddy's house and half drunk. Now would NOT be a good idea to ride your motorcycle home. Nope, not even if you wear a helmet and ride the speed limit. Bad Idea.
You're on hwy 20 an hour or so out from Ft Bragg on your nice new CBR600. The curve says "20 mph". You find yourself midcurve at 40mph. Now would be a bad time to stand the bike up and grab the brakes for all you're worth. It matters very little that you're on a bike considered unsuitable for newbies. You're using maybe 20 of that 110 horsepower, the other 80 are no detriment to your position. Poor judgement got you there without help of that evil power. Agile handling could get you out of it if you'd refrain from panicking. Panic is a Bad Idea.
Your buddy is driving away. You want to go too. Jumping on the moving car is a Very Bad Idea.
Breaking into a home armed with a knife when the owner is home and armed with a firearm also qualifies as Very Bad Idea.
Doing a low hook turn your first day skydiving, whether or not your wife videotapes the event, is a Bad Idea.
Riding your ATV too fast for conditions and going off a cliff on the beach in San Jose, is a Bad Idea.
Riding your motorcycle with a passenger on the gas tank, is a Very Bad Idea. (So is volunteering to be the passenger).
Straps that hang down and invite the chain to grab them, are a Bad Idea For All Concerned.
Now back to motorcycle choice specifics:
When riding down Watt ave in Sacramento and someone turns left in front of you, having not used a signal and not slowed down, good brakes are a Good Idea. In such an instance I would venture to opine that two large rotors pinched by a plethora of pistons beat the **** out of one skinny little rotor, or worse, a drum. Incidentally that was the first stoppie I ever did. It was a two finger stoppie. Using two fingers on the brakes is preached as bad practice. For the life of me I can't really figure out why.
When sitting stopped at a light, and car approaches from behind at a high rate of speed being chased by a police car, accelleration is a Good Thing. I would go so far as to say More is Better.
All of the above are real incidents. HIPAA will prevent me from going onto more detail on the traumas.
I can postulate a multitude of hypothetical situations where more power and better braking are an asset, but I can't think of a SINGLE INSTANCE where more power and better braking are a liability, WHEN RESPONSIBLY USED.
You are accountable for your actions and your choices. There is NO SUBSTITUTE for responsible actions.
Responsibility for yourself and your actions is a Good Idea.
98G
Get what you want. As long as you ride within YOUR abilities, what you are on is of little consequence.
Granted, power on hand is temptation to use it inappropriately.
Personally, and I realize my opinion is in the minority here, I see more power, agile handling, and superior brakes as a better means of avoiding the soccer mom on the cellphone.
You can kill yourself DRT on a EX500 just as easily as on a liter class sportbike.
Comes down to you. Are you mature enough to avoid temptation and ride responsibly?
I submit that the responsible new rider on a race bike with lights is less dangerous than the irresponsible guy riding the recommended 'newbie' bike, whose brother taught him to ride last week in 10 minutes in a parking lot.
98G
Granted, power on hand is temptation to use it inappropriately.
Personally, and I realize my opinion is in the minority here, I see more power, agile handling, and superior brakes as a better means of avoiding the soccer mom on the cellphone.
You can kill yourself DRT on a EX500 just as easily as on a liter class sportbike.
Comes down to you. Are you mature enough to avoid temptation and ride responsibly?
I submit that the responsible new rider on a race bike with lights is less dangerous than the irresponsible guy riding the recommended 'newbie' bike, whose brother taught him to ride last week in 10 minutes in a parking lot.
98G
98G said:
No offence intended, but bullshit.
An accidental "blip" of the wrist on that EX 500 isn't going to put you shiny side down... on a Gixxer 1k, it might.
You are correct that responsibility has SOMTHING to do with it... but not everything. A novice is just plain more likely to make a mistake... and on a "race bike" that mistake is a LOT more likely to cause you to go down.
It's like saying that giving the keys to a brand new 550hp Dodge Viper to a 16 year old with next to no experience in cars is just as safe as giving him the keys to your honda civic. I don't care HOW "responsible" the 16 year old is, that much power is dangerous... In the Viper, a bit too much gas at the wrong time and he's toast.... but it's REALLY hard to get sideways in a civic even when you're TRYING to.
A responsible novice rider is much more safe on a bike than an irresponsible novice rider.... mind you, the responsible novice won't be buying a gixxer 1k the first time out either.
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879 Posts
Starting on a larger bike can actually hurt your future riding abilities. If you start off on something small, then you will almost be forced into riding it for all it is worth to be able to stay up with everyone else and soon be embarassing the squids that went out and bought the biggest baddest thing daddies money could buy. The smaller bikes make you learn to be a good rider first and dependant on the false security of x-amount of hp second.
Starting on the larger bike gets you comfortable with the fact that you can go fast in a straight line but you still corner like a newbie and don't understand how the bike works. This happens probably about 80% of the time to newer riders that get something beyond their capability. Be smart, get the bike that suits your personality and experience and work up from there. Besides, if you start at the top, where do you go when its time to grow?
Starting on the larger bike gets you comfortable with the fact that you can go fast in a straight line but you still corner like a newbie and don't understand how the bike works. This happens probably about 80% of the time to newer riders that get something beyond their capability. Be smart, get the bike that suits your personality and experience and work up from there. Besides, if you start at the top, where do you go when its time to grow?
Both these answers are correct, not much we can do about about a squid who feels he needs 120hp+ between his legs to be manly. However we can give sound advice to those who are trying to approach riding responsably.98G said:
Here in Quebec the process of getting a M/C permit is probably the hardest in north america. You must take 12 hours of classroom lessons and prove you are signed up in a certified riding course in order to get your learners permit. Then you have 18 hours of closed circuit ridng lessons followed by 4 hours of street riding accompanied by certified instructors before you can show up for your first riding test on a closed circuit. This will get you a probationary permit that you must keep for at least 7 months ( during which time you can only ride if accompanied by another rider ( on a seperate bike )) then you must show up for another riding test, this time on public roads while being followed by a examiner in a car. Then and only then can you get your full permit.
Well I accompany many of these new riders who have just finished their 12 hours of classroom and 22 hours of practical training and see the same mistakes over and over again, From the best to the worst of the new riders they all make similar mistakes to different degrees. The ones that get into most trouble are always the sportbike rider/hormone laden/got to have the fastest bike/squids. The "I can control my bike" showoff somehow managing to wheelie his bike unintentionnaly while doing figures 8's or my all time favorite managing to high side while practicing stops from 15mph and locking up the rear brake.
Now when I agree to accompany these new riders I set the ground rules, I'll start off easy to check their skill and comfort level and will even take them to some of my favorite backcountry twisties. But as happens sometimes they get carried away and speed off in the distance, so far I've had to help 5 of these riders to pick up their bikes and administer first aid. Luckily none were seriously hurt but they had to find somebody else to ride with them.
//No offense taken.
**Good! 8) It's nice to know that people can disagree without pissed off at each other!
//Lesson learned? Don't blip the wrist....
**LOL! sorry, this is funny. Please tell me that you don't think that newbies on bikes don't ACCIDENTALLY blip the throttle once in a while? Like when hitting a bump in the road or something like that?
//Responsibility isn't everything, but I'd weight it 80%.
**I'd probably weight it lower than that as a newbie... probably around 50% but I can see arguments to go either way, so I don't necessarily disagree with you here.
//One thing about your comparison....Even a slow motorcycle is fast, with plenty of power to get in trouble with.
//...Let me relate something ...the time is the early 80's. 16 year old kid wants a trans am or Z28. He gets talked into a 6 cyl camaro instead. It's slow. He knows it. He tries to carry more speed in the corners to compensate for it. Result is he loses it in a curve. Meets a tree.
//Shortly thereafter he buys a 69 charger with a 440. It has enough power to pull the front wheels off the ground. He never wrecked this one. I wonder why? His skills hadn't improved. A big block dodge certainly doesn't corner any better than a camaro. Perhaps he KNEW the dodge was awash in power and respected it. (Or perhaps the tree was a wakeup call.)
**A slow bike has a lot of power too, granted... OK, compare this... give a kid a Mustang GT with 260+ HP VS. a Dodge viper. The viper is STILL way more likely for him to make a mistake with and kill himself in. I guess what I'm trying to understand here is why you think that a MUCH higher power vehicle is as safe or (if I understand you correctly) SAFER than a lower power vehicle. This doesn't make any sense to me.
**Even in your example you try to take both sides to make your point. You first say that a responsible person would be safer in the higher powered car, but then you use an example of a kid who acts irresponsibly in a low powered car who just about gets himself killed who then AFTER THE NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE gets in a high powered car and drives responsibly! I mean, what if he'd been in that Charger as his first car? Who's to say he wouldn't have taken that corner even FASTER because he didn't realize how quick the car got up to speed? To me, your example makes MY point better than it does YOURS! The mistake in the lower powered car didn't kill him, and it tought him to respect the vehicle and the power it represents.
///Were I a novice rider today, I'd be sorely tempted to do it this way: Take the MSF course and use their bike to learn on and get licensed. Then buy whatever appealed to me, new. Use the 1000 mile reduced rpm breakin period to break myself in as well as the motorcycle. For the next, say, 5k miles I'd set my goal to perform at the level of a decent car. Accellerate at 1/3 throttle or less, shifting at 7k rpm or less. I'd try to corner at no more than 5-10 mph over the posted recommended speeds for curves. I would not consider carrying a passenger. I also would NOT ride with experienced riders as their abilities would be more advanced and it would be pushing the envelope to keep up with them. I would constantly evaluate everything I did for potential improvement. After the intitial 6k miles or so of this reduced level riding, I would seek out more advanced instruction with track time.
**This is interesting, I mean, you realize that at 7k rpms in first gear, my gixxer is probably doing 40+mph? And that in pretty much any gear at 7k rpms it's right at the point where that mistake with the throttle I mentioned will lift the front end off the ground?
**My point here is this. A novice rider CAN'T know what the capabilities of a bike is. He's going to look at that tach and see that it doesn't redline until over 12k rpms and figure that hitting 6k or 7k rpms before shifting is just fine and safe. A SV650 may still have plenty of power, (and it does!) and it may be able to kill you (and it can). It is much harder to make that "fatal" mistake on one of those than it is a Gixxer 1k! If he hits that bump in the road and blips the throttle on the gixxer there's a good chance that the front end could come up. On the SV650 that's really not likely to happen.
///Now, statistically speaking, new riders with sportbikes crash far more frequently than new riders with less powerful motorcycles. The reasoning prevalent on this board is that this is because hair trigger controls amplify mistakes. I postulate that a good portion of it is new riders being tempted to exceed their abilities.
**I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you completely on this. But for a different reason that yours. To me, it takes a LOT more responsibility to NOT get the gixxer as your first bike. Thus meaning those new riders who buy one as their first bike are WAY more likely to be less responsible as a whole. BUT, I would still say that even of those who are responsible, I'm willing to bet a new rider with a sport bike is going to drop it much more often early on than a new rider with a less powerful bike.
** Maybe I'm going about this wrong. I'm trying to show you why your arguments are, in my opinion, wrong. Let me ask you this. Give me your reasons why it is NOT safer for a new rider to start on a less powerful bike? Give me your reasons why you are going to buy a Gixxer 1000 for YOUR 17 year old son/daughter as THEIR first bike.
DarkHorse
**Good! 8) It's nice to know that people can disagree without pissed off at each other!
//Lesson learned? Don't blip the wrist....
**LOL! sorry, this is funny. Please tell me that you don't think that newbies on bikes don't ACCIDENTALLY blip the throttle once in a while? Like when hitting a bump in the road or something like that?
//Responsibility isn't everything, but I'd weight it 80%.
**I'd probably weight it lower than that as a newbie... probably around 50% but I can see arguments to go either way, so I don't necessarily disagree with you here.
//One thing about your comparison....Even a slow motorcycle is fast, with plenty of power to get in trouble with.
//...Let me relate something ...the time is the early 80's. 16 year old kid wants a trans am or Z28. He gets talked into a 6 cyl camaro instead. It's slow. He knows it. He tries to carry more speed in the corners to compensate for it. Result is he loses it in a curve. Meets a tree.
//Shortly thereafter he buys a 69 charger with a 440. It has enough power to pull the front wheels off the ground. He never wrecked this one. I wonder why? His skills hadn't improved. A big block dodge certainly doesn't corner any better than a camaro. Perhaps he KNEW the dodge was awash in power and respected it. (Or perhaps the tree was a wakeup call.)
**A slow bike has a lot of power too, granted... OK, compare this... give a kid a Mustang GT with 260+ HP VS. a Dodge viper. The viper is STILL way more likely for him to make a mistake with and kill himself in. I guess what I'm trying to understand here is why you think that a MUCH higher power vehicle is as safe or (if I understand you correctly) SAFER than a lower power vehicle. This doesn't make any sense to me.
**Even in your example you try to take both sides to make your point. You first say that a responsible person would be safer in the higher powered car, but then you use an example of a kid who acts irresponsibly in a low powered car who just about gets himself killed who then AFTER THE NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE gets in a high powered car and drives responsibly! I mean, what if he'd been in that Charger as his first car? Who's to say he wouldn't have taken that corner even FASTER because he didn't realize how quick the car got up to speed? To me, your example makes MY point better than it does YOURS! The mistake in the lower powered car didn't kill him, and it tought him to respect the vehicle and the power it represents.
///Were I a novice rider today, I'd be sorely tempted to do it this way: Take the MSF course and use their bike to learn on and get licensed. Then buy whatever appealed to me, new. Use the 1000 mile reduced rpm breakin period to break myself in as well as the motorcycle. For the next, say, 5k miles I'd set my goal to perform at the level of a decent car. Accellerate at 1/3 throttle or less, shifting at 7k rpm or less. I'd try to corner at no more than 5-10 mph over the posted recommended speeds for curves. I would not consider carrying a passenger. I also would NOT ride with experienced riders as their abilities would be more advanced and it would be pushing the envelope to keep up with them. I would constantly evaluate everything I did for potential improvement. After the intitial 6k miles or so of this reduced level riding, I would seek out more advanced instruction with track time.
**This is interesting, I mean, you realize that at 7k rpms in first gear, my gixxer is probably doing 40+mph? And that in pretty much any gear at 7k rpms it's right at the point where that mistake with the throttle I mentioned will lift the front end off the ground?
**My point here is this. A novice rider CAN'T know what the capabilities of a bike is. He's going to look at that tach and see that it doesn't redline until over 12k rpms and figure that hitting 6k or 7k rpms before shifting is just fine and safe. A SV650 may still have plenty of power, (and it does!) and it may be able to kill you (and it can). It is much harder to make that "fatal" mistake on one of those than it is a Gixxer 1k! If he hits that bump in the road and blips the throttle on the gixxer there's a good chance that the front end could come up. On the SV650 that's really not likely to happen.
///Now, statistically speaking, new riders with sportbikes crash far more frequently than new riders with less powerful motorcycles. The reasoning prevalent on this board is that this is because hair trigger controls amplify mistakes. I postulate that a good portion of it is new riders being tempted to exceed their abilities.
**I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you completely on this. But for a different reason that yours. To me, it takes a LOT more responsibility to NOT get the gixxer as your first bike. Thus meaning those new riders who buy one as their first bike are WAY more likely to be less responsible as a whole. BUT, I would still say that even of those who are responsible, I'm willing to bet a new rider with a sport bike is going to drop it much more often early on than a new rider with a less powerful bike.
** Maybe I'm going about this wrong. I'm trying to show you why your arguments are, in my opinion, wrong. Let me ask you this. Give me your reasons why it is NOT safer for a new rider to start on a less powerful bike? Give me your reasons why you are going to buy a Gixxer 1000 for YOUR 17 year old son/daughter as THEIR first bike.
DarkHorse
Hey boy's, you're using up valuable server space.
Trying for the longest post award ?
When you boil everything down, I believe everybody is actually in agreement here.
1-Motorcycles can be dangerous be it a 250cc or a 1 liter gixxer
2-Training will reduce the risks
3-Experience will reduce the risks
4-Intellectual maturity will further reduce the risk
5-Opting for a bike your training,experience and maturity allow you to ride in a responsable manner will create a situation favorable to a long career as a motorcyclist.
6-Some newbies will get bikes we don't recommend and fare well but chances are not on their side so any succes they have should not be an endorsement of that method.
Trying for the longest post award ?
When you boil everything down, I believe everybody is actually in agreement here.
1-Motorcycles can be dangerous be it a 250cc or a 1 liter gixxer
2-Training will reduce the risks
3-Experience will reduce the risks
4-Intellectual maturity will further reduce the risk
5-Opting for a bike your training,experience and maturity allow you to ride in a responsable manner will create a situation favorable to a long career as a motorcyclist.
6-Some newbies will get bikes we don't recommend and fare well but chances are not on their side so any succes they have should not be an endorsement of that method.
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